I wonder how do you feel about the Russian VS. Canadian pair scating result. I know that everytime i read a post, politics are mensioned. To me it sounds like the problem is very close to the ballroom world politics.
What are your thoughts on that?

I don't have any ideas, but...I've been watching the Olympics, and realized there are a LOT of judged sports! First the obvious ones: figure skating, gymnastics (artistic and rhythmic), synchronized swimming, diving. Now the ones that I hadn't realized were judged until I actually saw the competitions: ski jumping (yes, the jumpers are awarded style points which are calculated with the distance jumped to provide a final score), freestyle skiing, and snowboarding.

Has anyone here heard of scandals in ski jumping judging?

What is it about figure skating that brings on continued controversey? I mean, if snowboarding and ski jumping can get along fine with respect to judging, then why can't figure skating figure it out (pun intended)?

Laura

hmmmm...

I don't know a whole lot about skating, so I feel like I was totally in the hands of the announcers as far as who "should have" won.
Is this as controversial in the world of skating?
For example, I was watching a dancesport thing on goodlife where the announcers spent the entire show talking about how incredible james and jaana were and then were "shocked" when bill and kimberly beat them.. if I was just a casual viewer, it would have seemed very controversial.. but knowing competitions, I was like "duh, of course they beat them"..

I wonder if the skating comunity isn't doing the same thing. perhaps a certain ammount of this was based on the announcers trying to make the competition seem more up in the air than it actually was when everyone kind of already knew who the winners were before the competition..?

or perhaps there was something subtle in the skating of the russians that made them better competitors..

I guess I'm trying to head off the politics comments...

I am curious what skaters have to say about it though..

-Mike

perhaps a certain ammount of this was based on the announcers trying to make the competition seem more up in the air than it actually was when everyone kind of already knew who the winners were before the competition..?

I've been following skating since about 1976. Salle' and Pelltier are definitely capable of beating Behrezaya and Sihkurlidze (good lord I totally mangled all the spellings of all four names, and I apologize). However, last night they didn't.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that NBC announcer Scott Hamilton has shown time and time again that he can get completely hysterical when commentating on figure skating...and his histrionics last night were the worst ever, in my opinion. Knowledgeable skaters, regional-level judges, and fans who hang out on the USENET group rec.sport.skating.ice.figure have pointed out time and time again that, for a former Olympic Gold Medalist and multiple World Champion, Scott Hamilton is a truly awful commentator. They have pointed out that he often says things that are misleading, especially about judging rules and fundamental skating technique. So I think being mislead by Scott Hamilton last night is a definite contributing problem here.

or perhaps there was something subtle in the skating of the russians that made them better competitors..

According to one poster, who used to be a figure skating reported for CBS Sportsline, B&S (the Russians) had much more intricate choreography than S&P (the Canadians). They had more interesting connecting moves -- where "interesting" is defined as "more changes of edge, position, and hand hold" than the Canadians.

The judges rewarded the S&P with a higher technical mark than B&S. This reflects that, even though B&S's program was more difficult to begin with, the fact that Anton S. fell out of his double axel, and that Elena B. had shaky landings (for her) on her throw jumps was appropriately held against them.

The difference was in the 2nd mark, which commentators OFTEN mis-explain as "artistry" when in fact it is really "presentation." The presentation mark is made up of many well-defined points, including speed, ice coverage, placement of choreographic high points, carriage, depth of edging, and to a smaller extent originality, costuming, and overall 'performance intangibles' such as 'emotion' and 'spark.'

B&S were given higher artistic marks than S&P.

I guess I'm trying to head off the politics comments...

Unfortunately, in this case politics may definitely have come into play. It is already going around that there has been a deal cut to get the French Ice Dance team, Annisina & Piezerat, to the top of the podium. This deal ALLEGEDELY MAY have included getting certain judges to place B&S high in pairs in return for other judges later placing A&P high in ice dance. This rumor has been reported in the Canadian press by figure skating commentator (and former Canadian pairs champion) Barb Underhill. People on rec.sport.skating.ice.figure from Canada have also reported that this deal has been mentioned on the CBC.

Laura

Any way you look at the Canadians were winners in the way they handled the matter. In an interview with Katie Couric this morning, they were very gracious about what happened. They even said they didn't want controversy over it. IMO, Katie asked leading questions which could have made them look less than gracious but they handled it really well. They are so young and have so much grace and that is truly admirable.

To be fair, some in the stands and even the Canadians thought they had won and they could not hear comments from the NBC commentators.

I was watching the pairs event pretty eagerly last night and hoping, (as a transplanted Canadian) that the Canadians would win. And like most other lay viewers it seems, I too thought they should have won. I don't however think it was so outrageous that they didn't and in thinking about the marks it seems perhaps it may have in the end been a question of aesthetic preferences. Clearly the Canadian couple had a much better technical performance and the judges marks reflected that across the board if I'm not mistaken. So has it happened it was the artistic merit marks that made the difference and the panel was quite split over which couple deseverd the higher score. Some clearly preferred the Russians more balletic, classical style and others the Canadians' more energetic, popular almost casual style. I don't think we should be so surprised to see the preferences devided along national lines as they were (The French judge perhaps being the only one who might have gone either way). Aesthetic preferences are cultivated within a context and the choreography of the Canadian's was more closely linked to a style of art-dance fostered in North America (by choreographers such as Jerome Robins for example).The Russians performed a more classical style more closely resembling russian/western european classical ballet tradition. Without elaborating on the history of dance in a post that would be probably too long and tiresome for the uninterested I think its not unlikely that the judges cast their votes for their aesthic preferences along the lines not unliked to the dance traditions they are most identified with - albeit unconsciously.

J

Lauar - I am with you on this.

It was fairly simple to notice the seemingly cleaner performance of S&P - in the figures that were obvious to the public, like landings in jumps. It was more difficult to notice that the height of the jumps and throws performed by the Russians was considerably superior. It was also more diffult to notice for the public that the Canadians' side-to side spin actions were out of sync (and the announcers chose not to comment of this). It was more difficult to notice the incredibly superior speed and ice coverage, and the mastery of the edging and position changes of the Russian. ...I can go on and on about this.

The Canadians' performance was indeed a lovely one. They did well that night, and that's why the results were so close.

Regardless of who we think should have won the gold, one can't help but notice the fuss that this stirred up and think of dancesport. On a previous thread, some members of this message board seem disappointed and maybe a little outraged by the short shrift given dancesport by the Olympics coverage. But one can't help wonder if the media isn't doing us a favor by ignoring dancesport right now.

On Sunday, the NY Times ran a long front page article on the subjectivity of judging in skating--questioning whether it even belonged in the Olympics. Reading that, I thought to myself, boy, if the world ever took a close look at dancesport's judging, what would it have to say about that topic, especially if "subjectivity" could stir up a front page Times piece.

The controversy that ensued last night, coming after the controversy four years ago at the Olympics in Ice dancing, which was also over alleged bias in judging, reminds me that however much we may want to see dancesport in the Olympics, dancesport would have to go a long way to clean up it's act just to get to the point where ice skating is these days, and even then, the world wouldn't be very satisfied. After all, ice skating judges don't even teach, and in the press today some journalists were horrified by the very notion that skating judges attend many competitions, and therefore may have 'preconceived' notions about who is going to win an event.

If that were the case, what would the Olympics audience think of dancesport....?

Somehow, the pairs this year seemed pretty lackluster (in the broad general sense), compared to other years. Everyone at my office was wondering the same thing aloud today. What's up with that? We don't know how the Canadians would have placed out in any other year, so looks like we'll have to wait 4 and find out.

It really makes no sense to try to blame Hamilton for people's perceptions (not this time, anyway). We saw the footage of the judges and the couples and the coaches. No one there could hear Hamilton, and every one of them appeared to be dismayed and upset - and that may be too mild a statement for the 4 judges shown looking at the other 5 as if they had completely lost their silly minds...nope. If it was merely a perception problem, an awful lot of people were suffering from it simultaneously! More a definite difference of opinion, I think.

Let's hope the Canadians get a better shot next time around. I did like them very much! They aren't Torvill and Dean, but they're young yet.

As for ballroom, well, differences of opinion about the judging don't seem to get the public all fired up. Maybe nothing will happen until there's some really major scandal? Seems to help popularize boxing and skating, anyway.

I am telling you, we need another "Tonya Harding -- Nancy Carrigan" scandal in ballroom, then we will defenetly see a ballroom dance special every weekend. And instead of "Stars on Ice" it is going to be "Satrs on the Dance Floor".
... its a nice thought anyway