The preceding thread discusses competition fees pro/AM competitors are charged by thier instructor. This one relates entry fees charged by ballroom competitions: why do pro/AM copetitors almost invariably have to pay much higher registration fees at competitions for the same dances?
Lets take as an example the single dance entry fee for sylabus level competitions. At the upcoming Yankee Classic this is $30/entry for the pro/AM but the AM/AMs pay $25/dance. At the Emerald Ball (may 2006) it is $35/dance for pro/AM but $20/dance for AM/AM. And at the Classique de Montreal its $30 for the pro/AM but $20 for the AM/AM.
Leaving aside the fact that AM of the pro/AM couple invariably pays the entire entry fee (anyone know a pro who pays his/her half?) whereas the amateur couple presumably split the cost (after all it is a fee per couple), why charge the pro/AM more? Surely there are no more costs to a pro/AM competition than the AM/AM one - its not like these are at a prime time or that more judges are needed. This is something that happens at almost all the competitions but is just generally accepted - but I can see no logic for it - other than the pro/AM is, as is quite usual, a vulnerable target.
As I see it the real problem for the pro/AM competitor is that there is no organization that represents their interests - and hence, they are open to being taken advantage of. I beleive that this is bad for everyone concerned since it is discouraging more people from participating.
In a separate thread I have tried to stimulate interest in the creation of a pro/AM organization - a body that can start to formalize this dancesport and provide some guidance to issues such as fee structures and competition organization. Unfortunately, few people have responded - raising the possibility that there is little interest. There have been previous attempts to incorporate pro/AM competitors into a professional organization. However, I have seen no arguments that this is to serve the pro/AM - only that this would be a source of additional membership fees. I think this would be dreadful - at best the pro/AM would be a second class member and at worst it would be a classic case of poachers turning into game wardens.
Can someone tell me why there is aparently so little interest in this issue?
And when you are saying Am/Am do you mean student/student which are typically on the floor at the same time of Pro/Amers and don't have to register with NDCA, and typically are signed up under a teacher's name.
Or are you talking Am/Am where each person needs to be registered with NDCA and have their own events usually titled Novice, etc. and typically dance evenings? And where there is no or little prize money involved?
By Am/Am I mean amateur couple competitions - which invariably are on the floor at a different time from the pro/AM (capitals to indicate that I am talking about the amateur half of the partnership. THese are the dancers who, to a large extent, both keep the professionals in business and make a major contribution to the support of dance competitions.
Am/Ams typically pay dues to USABDA and may also do so to NDCA if they wish to enter events supported by the latter. It is true that pro/AMs do not pay annual dues - either to USABDA or NDCA and perhaps the higher competition entry fees could be seen as a sort of tax to make up this difference. However, if I enter 10 single dance events I will end up paying at an extra $50 to 100. Please correct me if I am amiss, but annual dues for USABDA are curently %50 and amateur competitors who compete at NDCA events are expected to pay $35. Thus, the extra fees at one competition are approequal equal to the sum of these rates. Personally, I would rather pay one membership rate and get the lower entry fees. If pro/AMers have bona-fide membership status perhaps this would also help to erode the notion (seen too often) that they are less than serious competitors. I am assuming, of course that others agree!
The problem is that Am/Ams don't have voting rights, and if Pro/AMers were to have to register, that would just be a fee that would go into the NDCA coffers, and still wouldn't have a say.
The problem stems down to each competition while sanctioned by NDCA gets no funding from that organization (big assumption on my part, and actually, I believe have to pay NDCA for the sanctioning). (At least, in USADance, the chapters get some money from the memberships). So these competitions need to attract competitors, and not those who do just 10-15 dances like you or me, but the hardcore Pro/AMer who does 30-80 dances. To do this they offer top teacher/student awards. That's 10s of thousands of dollars, that money comes from somewhere.
So think of it this way, ticket sales probably cover the ballroom. Cheap amateur events is just a way to bring in a few more bodies, and all they give out is trophy or medals, which cost what $5-$10. So they still make a few dollars.
Now you still have to cover the judges, scrutineer, dj, and mc. Who is going to pay for that? The pro's? I think not, their entry fees tend to go straight into the prize pool, because they are the show that bring in the bodies to pay for the ballroom. So it's gotta to be the people who have "deep" pockets and can afford to pay for 2 people to travel, entry fees, and compensate the instructor for missed lessons.
Unfortunately, entry fees are only going to go up higher and higher, as it gets more expensive to rent hotel ballrooms and rooms, and fly in the necessary officials. yes, they get their airfare and lodging paid for.
If you want to have a say in your entry fees, the only way is to vote with your pocketbook, by picking competitions that have lower fees, and endorsing them. Start a newsletter with recommendations for Pro/AMers who do smaller numbers of heats, like you and me. The drawback is that I've found the cheaper the entry fee, the smaller the competition, and no other person dancing in my "category". But hey if enough people start learning who's holding the "value" competitions maybe more people will show.
And really, if you want to start an organization, you need to get people to listen to you first, and then after they respect you, then start asking for people to become a member.
I understand the reason for entry fees - but the rationalle that pro/AMs should pay more than the AM/AMs is still lost on me. Not all of us have the 'deep pockets' that can easily pay for all those extra costs. Surely I am not alone in doing pro/AM because I love it, despite the fact that the resources are hard to come by - and I have to budget to find the funds. I am truly fortunate in that I have an excellent instructor who charges reasonable fees - but the costs are still enormous - not even counting the fact that I have to pay for a lesson just to practise.
Thus, sure there should be fees but why should pro/AMs effectively bankroll AM/AMs? They already do so, as you point out, by entering far more heats. (Gee how does anyone dance that much? My feed are dead after 10...)
You say: "And really, if you want to start an organization, you need to get people to listen to you first, and then after they respect you, then start asking for people to become a member." I think this is good advice and, if a trifle strongly stated, correct. There are, of course, FAR more informed, experienced and capable people to lead such a drive than I many of them are right here (probably yourself included). And, I do not have ANY aspirations of being leader such an organization - this is not an ego trip - besides, I have a full time very demanding JOB (no independently wealthy pro/AMer here).
What I would like to do is to stimulate this idea (and I know this is an 'again') and help to get something concrete in action. There are two main ways to do this: either to get an existing organization to pick this up or to start something small, focused and new and see where it goes. From what I have learned here and on the web Option 1 has been tried before really to no avail- with either the professional or amateur groups. However, no one has tried Option 2. Simply the initiation of a membership-required group that starts to address issues that are important for pro/AMers - such as fees and the bizzare competitions where we compete one at a time even when there is no instructor overlap etc. etc. Currently pro/AM is designed for the convenience of instructors and competition organizers. While this is OK from a business perspective it is not addressing important issues for the amateur - and paying - half of the partnership. In so doing, I suspect that it is preventing the entry of a large number of potential pro/AMers and also impeding the development of pro/AM into a serious and respected element of dancesport.
Thus, the real question should have nothing to do with me at all: do we need such an organization and, if so do we have the energy and common purpose to create one? Or maybe I should just curl up and . A with everything I am open to any option!
Hi, I've been reading this threat about the unfairness of charging pro/ams higher entry fees than am/ams.... I was wondering if anyone has any information to share about what some professionals have been charging students in terms of "loss of business" for being at a competition. I've been competing in pro/am for about a year. During the first year, my teacher charged very reasonable rates for two styles of dancing (i.e. smooth and standard) and nothing for "loss of business." But now he's become extremely popular, not just for pro/am competitions, but for general lessons as well. So, he just hit me with news that he will be charging an ADDITIONAL fee of $450 to be shared among his students attending competitions in connection with days needed to travel to and from a competition. Thus, if we need to catch a flight to Ohio or Florida, he has no other business those days we're traveling, and so, in addition to paying for travel expenses, registration fees, his fees for dancing with me (which are still reasonable), I'm hit with another $900 for "travel time" because he figures he now earns $450/day. Gee, I'm an attorney, and I barely take home this much after paying taxes! Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? I've threatened to quit because I feel this is entirely outrageous and unjustifiable.
Originally posted by tangogodess: $450 to be shared among his students attending competitions in connection with days needed to travel to and from a competition...I'm hit with another $900 for "travel time" because he figures he now earns $450/day.
Tangogodess, I'm confused when you say you're hit with another $900 for travel time - Are you his only student going to that competition?
In general, as a business, it would make sense to me to recapture the lost income by an offsetting charge and, as you mentioned he has been reasonable with his rates in past. To me the $450 a day does not seem unreasonable (at a rate of $75 per hour for a private it would mean six hours)
Lets face it, these instructors may be losing a days wage but then again look at all the extra lessons that are being taken by those he is competing with, that he would not normally have. The students who do well also make him look better which means he gets a good reputation and more students because of them. The more popular the higher he can jack up his rates but that popularity came on the backs of his competitive students. Chances may be that by competing in the Pro/Am he is getting his face and name known by people that would not know him from a hill of beans if he hadn't. His competing is like advertising himself at the same time and he not only does not pay for it but gets paid. I used to do Pro/Am (if I see you Elise (you know me actually) I've got to tell you all the different ways I got fleeced) but for the last 5 or 6 years have done amateur couple. At one competition my father went into Pro/Am and my partner and I did Amateur Couple with my partner. We stayed at the same hotel (where the comp. was held) ate basically the same meals, went into the ballroom to see the same shows, and did the same amout of dances. It cost him $1600.00 but only cost my partner and I $250.00 each. So where did all the extra money go? Why the huge difference in cost? One thing that may make the cost of the Pro/Am fee more than the Am/Am is that the Top Teacher awards have to come from somewhere. The Am/Am does not have this so its not as expensive.
Originally posted by tangogodess: $450 to be shared among his students attending competitions in connection with days needed to travel to and from a competition...I'm hit with another $900 for "travel time" because he figures he now earns $450/day.
Tangogodess, I'm confused when you say you're hit with another $900 for travel time - Are you his only student going to that competition?
In general, as a business, it would make sense to me to recapture the lost income by an offsetting charge and, as you mentioned he has been reasonable with his rates in past. To me the $450 a day does not seem unreasonable (at a rate of $75 per hour for a private it would mean six hours)
Yes, I've been the only student going to competitions for the last year. Now, my instructor has two other students--but they're still too new to be going to "away" competitions--so for purposes of these bigger comps, I'm the only student going. I understand what you say about it's a business, etc., but the cost of an away comp, already at least $2400 by the time I pay for all of my/my instructors travel expenses and comp fees, would be an additional $450/day x 3 even 4, which just makes it impossible to swing financially. I told my instructor all of this, how I felt, and how this new fee structure would basically obliterate away comps for me in the future. And we all know how important some of these away comps are.... And yes, he has become more popular due to my success in pro/am--and also due my ambition. I started doing away comps within 4 months of my very first local competition. In the end, my instructor saw my point, and he revised his fee structure. Now it's very fair--he has to make at least $300/day. So if I'm the only student going to a comp, I usually dance enough heats that he earns $300/day, so that's not a problem. Then for travel days, he said he would only charge $200/day and that fee would include all of his meals--and there would be no $200 charge for travel days back from a competition or on Sundays.... Which basically boils down to the same fees as before since the $200 covers all his meals. Thanks for your input! This story has a happy ending (for now).
I would be interested in a pro/AM group! I have been dancing just under two years and am really frustrated by the inequities of the comp scene. For the record, I pay $300 per day for "away time" as well as a per dance charge and expenses for my pro. I am also his only student competing at this time so I feel tangogodess' pain.
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. A with everything I am open to any option!
