quote:You can do this as long as you want. However when you try to make a living at a certain occupation, you just might have to charge your clients for your service. Good for you that you have another job. But giving stuff away for free ultimately undermines everyone.
So, am I really supposed to believe that there's any real advantage to the product I get if I pay some trainee teacher as opposed to working with an experienced amateur at no cost? Should I just consider myself as a worthless dance industry basher - or will I perhaps be forgiven if I improve my skills now with said amateur and then later spend money with the quality pro my improved skills will naturally lead me to want? Or is it all a wash because I owe all pros just on the general principle that they have bills? Wow. I think I'll try that one out on my employers <G>.
Really. The marketplace can and will take care of itself. The only people who have anything to worry about will be A) those who don't know (or who don't care) what their customers want; and B) those who can't actually deliver what their customers want. I'm afraid you're just gonna have to figure out which kind you are, and then deal with it as best you can - because as far as I know, neither USABDA nor NDCA are going to write you a check any time soon.
<Crystal>
Posted
This site has changed a lot since I started hanging out here. Three years ago, the majority of members were pro-am women, and amateur men who enjoyed social dancing and only competed occasionally, and with good spirit. We now have what I sometimes call "dance Nazis" all over the place. The pro-am women disappeared, not surprisingly, mostly around the time that a lot of the posts turned personal, both in terms of harsh attacks, and the sexual innuendo that took over for a while. That was a bit after the NDCA/USABDA fight broke out and amateurs poured out of the woodwork to rage against the NDCA here. My hunch is that few pro-am women have much interest in the politics of dance (shoot them, if you will, but that's how they are!!) Even fewer have an interest in anonymous flirtation with men half their age. Consequently, amateur competitors started dominating at DanceScape, interchangeably with college students. Again, not much of a welcoming environment for pro-am women, as both segments have their own narrow agendas and both are hostile toward the whole pro-am concept. My feeling is that the loss of pro-am women was a loss for the whole board. But that's just me. However, don't be fooled for a second with the thought that the members of this forum are representative, in any way, shape or form, of ballroom dancers in the US. They may be more politically representative of am-am dancers, or at least one very vocal segment of amateur dancers, but they are definitely not representative of the economically more powerful, and possibly numerically more powerful, pro-am dancers. I just find it sad that pro-am women are not welcome here, and I think it skews the debate greatly.
<Crystal>
Posted
While I think I will get slammed anyway, I wanted to point out that I don't care enough about either the NDCA or USABDA to get all twisted over their dispute. Nor do I care if USABDA sanctions pro-am competitions, or allows amateurs to teach for money, or whatever. I love the idea of regional (and national) USABDA comps, and have great admiration for the USABDA volunteers. I also care about the NDCA teachers and dancers. All in all, Laura is probaly the most sensible person in pointing out we should try to grow the pie, rather than resenting whatever slice someone else might be enjoying.
Nice to see you again Crystal. I was thinking similar thoughts regarding the changing demographics of these boards. I think they're in the middle of another shift right now, percipitated in part by the recent software changes. I've also noticed that a few of the "post-amateur/college revolution" regulars have recently disappeared. Traffic here has dropped off considerably, and to tell you the truth it feels rather quiet and lonely. But perhaps there is opportunity in this: opportunity for people who have never been here before to join in, and for groups who have been marginalized in the past to come back and start enjoying these forums again.
Getting back to the topic at hand: the thought has occurred to me that despite all the angst regarding the NDCA/USABDA sour relations, nothing has really changed in many people's amateur dance life except for having to join two organizations rather than one. I don't really understand, looking back now, what all the angst and argument was for. I don't really even see anything as having changed since then. It's like everyone got all upset about nothing, and I'm thinking this Dance Beat editorial is more upset over nothing. I'm still waiting for both organizations to come up with cool ideas for growing and developing dancesport: the kind of initiatives that they'd make press releases about and we'd all be going "WOW!" or "uh, are you sure you want to do this?" or SOMETHING other than maintaining the status quo and hoping that the economy recovers faster than competition organizers run out of money.
In the years I have been involved I have not seen any growth. In fact, since the end of the PBS program, Championship Ballroom Dancing, with the exception of the influx of young Russian dancers, adult amateur dancing has taken a big hit. At NDCA events the over 35 and over 50 syllabus heats usually included 7-15 couples, today 3-4 is a big deal. Where did they all go? Dropping out is one thing but there have been no replacements. Maybe a realization that they were never going to be national champs and that even maintaining status quo takes lots of money and effort. Too bad for them because without a base in these categories, the current competing young adults will drift away if they don't go into teaching. Most of the young competitors are not able to handle a social dance situation so without continuity in the age brackets, they will ultimately exit left. Sad. Dancescape added a pro-am category for posting some time back. I doesn't seem to have any real postings. Does that tell us something?
These boards have changed demographics because dancesport has changed demographics.... the older competitor, who never was a major factor in the Dancesport world, is probably just busy practicing. The more vocal on this board have always been either the impassioned or the angry; the younger folks rightly see these boards as a point of communication for scores and shout outs; the older folks see this as a sort of 'talk radio' version of the internet. Both have their place.
The sour relations have borne a lot of fruit re: the comp world. Most amateurs do not see proam comping as a valid part of their shcedule, tho the politics still play a part in the scoring, the savvy coaches will slowly attact more students when they show that they do NOT politicize for money. Younger folks do not fork over cash as easily - they are not cowed by threats, veiled or overt.
Dance Beat is a promotional rag. At least it seems better written (tho the Didio interviews should at least edit out the 'fabulousness' comments and obviously 'out there' pronouncements. Too much nepotism here) while Amatuer Dancer Magazine seems like the house organ for a midwestern cardboard factory. Neither address the younger competitor (the anonymous pics in AD are insulting, while octegenarian 'columnists' get multiple picture credits - and their discussing American Social 'step patterns' endlessly seems to show a real disregard for the 'real world' that does exist).
The poor interface provided these days here is difficult to navigate and it makes coming here a difficult process. Also, there is not much here for the 'pro am ladies'. Face it, if they 'love' Dancesport, but not enough to do more than show up an hour or two a week at a lesson, what makes you think that they wil 'have the time' to participate in discussions here, much less have an interest in it? In the pro-am world they are insulated from conflict as WELL as difficulty - what do they care about serious competition or serious politics? Sorry to be so blunt, but when you open a topic about hotel food or cute teachers, you'll see increased activity from middle aged women.
<um?>
Posted
quote:Originally posted by David: with the exception of the influx of young Russian dancers, adult amateur dancing has taken a big hit. At NDCA events the over 35 and over 50 syllabus heats usually included 7-15 couples, today 3-4 is a big deal... ...Maybe a realization that they were never going to be national champs and that even maintaining status quo takes lots of money and effort... ...the current competing young adults will drift away if they don't go into teaching. Most of the young competitors are not able to handle a social dance situation so without continuity in the age brackets, they will ultimately exit left.
this speaks volumes in my mind regarding the misguided obsession with having only the best qualifyed teachers and how everyone thinks they are bing ripped off by the average joe teacher, AND the recent delusional idea that we were going to be the next Olympic wonder sport.
Can't anyone just understand that there is nothing wrong with dancing for the pure enjoyment and casul competing. When these attitudes are poopooed and those dancers feel unwanted and unwelcome, they will/are leaving, especially on this aggressive flaming board and in the industry as a whole.
I don't think the dancebeat article was wrong, luading the very people that have supported the industry since its beinning here was admirable, not insulting. Perhaps his wording and timing could have been better.
With or without the software changes, the active DS population seems to morph spontaneously from time to time. I thought this last round of software changes was very off-putting, and I may not be the only one, considering how quiet the forums have been. Still, I don't really take DS activity by itself as a major indicator of where the entire dance demographics are going.
An empty board leaves room to do lots of different things. Laura's doubtless right in seeing this as an opportunity to change the tone of interaction around here, but in the end, it will probably define itself. -anon-, whoever you may be, cracked me up. Your take on the dance rags was spot on. Besides - all print magazines are pretty much a one-way communication, unless you have the patience to write the editor, wait for weeks, take whatever response they may (or may not) hand out. And then poof! Conversation over. The only real alternative is to blog.
But more to the demographics the point, I have attended a number of dance events recently in different styles and in different geographic areas. What I saw was a rather large shift, not away from dancing, but into popular dance styles people seem to like more. We're talking hundreds of people crowding these events on a scale that makes all but the largest NDCA and USABDA comps look pretty sad. I made it a point to talk to lots of people and ask questions. What I kept hearing was that many of them have at least a nodding acquaintance with Ballroom, many were pretty awed by what they had seen on TV, and at the higher levels consider Ballroom training a technical must. But on the whole, they found it very demanding and fairly boring. The pleasure/pain ratio just wasn't what they had in mind, and they were generally oblivious to the Ballroom Wars (all of them). They just want to dance.
I came to the conclusion that until or unless people are offered a ballroom experience they see as accessible, affordable, and enjoyable, they are going to disappear in droves. Variously cited gripes were very tame and out of date music; that Ballroom is what "older people" (sic) like - and this was coming as much from middle-aged people as from the 20-somethings; a general feeling of being very restricted; and a notion that skill at Ballroom dancing was kind of a rarified and unattainable thing for them.
I certainly don't know all the answers, but I think I got a pretty good feel for the questions. It's kind of hard to grow Ballroom when it insists on constant introspection as a reference point, because the new blood isn't inside the Ballroom community in the first place. They're out dancing.
quote:Originally posted by anon: In the pro-am world they are insulated from conflict as WELL as difficulty - what do they care about serious competition or serious politics? Sorry to be so blunt, but when you open a topic about hotel food or cute teachers, you'll see increased activity from middle aged women.
Well, I see the same stereotyped negative attitude about Pro/Ams is still alive and well. It was constant hammering like this that drove away the Pro/Am posters in the first place.
I *love* Dancesport, and as a middle-aged woman who dances in both Pro/Am and Amateur events, I find your comments ill-informed and insulting. Yes, I only take two lessons per week from my Pro/Am teacher. I can't get any more from him, his schedule is full. And if I did take more, you'd just rail at me for paying to practice with him anyway. But I do a hell of a lot more for dancesport than a lot of people do: I'm an officer in my local USABDA chapter, I'm my chapter's web master, I act as event Registrar for all our chapter's competitions, and I am on the organizing committee for 10 USABDA-sanctioned competitions over the next three years, including a State Championships, a Regionals, and the 2006 Nationals. The interesting thing about this is that I am NOT the only Pro/Am dancer who is doing this sort of thing. When I read comments like yours I ask myself "why the heck should I put all this time and effort in when unfeeling rude people will immediately write me off just because I happen to be dancing with my teacher?"
The reason why people respond to topics like hotel food or cute teachers is because they are non-political and won't start endless flame wars. That's why the fashion topics were so heavily read and posted to for a while, but even that has dropped off.
So please tell me what fruit the comp world in the United States has seen as a result of the NDCA/USABDA split? All I've seen is that
(1) the people who were teaching before, both within the rules and without, are still teaching
(2) the people who were sandbagging before, both in USABDA and the NDCA events, are still sandbagging
(3) only a very few new competitions have been added, and the NDCA is probably not happy about that because they already have an 80-event calendar just themselves
(4) based on direct observation in California, so this might not be representative, there are fewer people in the events in all ages, affiliations, and styles.
I am very interested to know what improvements you have seen.
