quote:and a notion that skill at Ballroom dancing was kind of a rarified and unattainable thing for them.
Funny that I like ballroom because I deem the other dance forms unattainable. So it's all persernal perception. I agree that by having 'accessible, affordable, and enjoyable' events, we'll have a much better chance of exposing and retaining people with ballroom blood in this activity. The USABDA mixed/pro-am comps will do just that. Most people will never like ballroom or to the extent we do, and that is fine.
it's actually been kind of nice to have a bit of quiet from some of the rantings of younger kids. that said, it is probably temporary because as a mother of 2, after the march break, my kids are busy with exams which are happening this month and then looking for summer jobs. i suspect after the summer holidays, and kids are back in school, they'll be back.
quote:Originally posted by Latinidiot: Most people will never like ballroom or to the extent we do, and that is fine.
Good point. In fact, a delightfully refreshing point. The way I see it, there are three options for dancesport in the USA:
1) Keep going on as we have been. At least we know what that will entail. There's little fear in maintaining the status quo.
2) Remake dancesport into what pretty much amounts as an elite-driven Youth-only league. Groups like ADSA and Dance Team USA could run the sport. With their focus on developing young dancers and ability to make their own decisions without being burdened by years of maintaining the status quo, this streamlining could be a fresh start for dancesport.
3) Become a more transparent, fluid and market-driven sport that can respond to what dancers want so as to increase the number of dancers in all age groups and economic brackets. This would be the most difficult course of action, but in many ways it is already happening and can't be stopped.
"And when Victor takes money from his students to go dance "mixed proficiency", tell me how that is different than pro-am."
Victor who? Fung? He is a pro now, either you are referring to another Victor or you are still living in the past.
As for the devalue comment. There is a studio owner who advertised in Dance beat often, about how he can improve a studio. Does anyone know this guy is being sued for his unethical business practices? If anyone devalues dance, it is him, and the NDCA will still allow his teaching pros to be members even though they are being sued for unethical practices that the NDCA publishes in their code of ethics. In fact when I asked one of their instructors about this code of ethics that should be posted in the studio he didn't know what I was talking about. But like most of his so called "Dance Professionals", he probably couldn't even spell N-D-C-A, even if he sounded it out and I used it in a sentence.
While your description of AD was right on the money, I feel that you're bashing pro-ams quite a bit more than they deserve. I know a fair number of them personally, and I can assure you that they are not all about hotel food and cute teachers.
quote:Originally posted by anon: Also, there is not much here for the 'pro am ladies'. Face it, if they 'love' Dancesport, but not enough to do more than show up an hour or two a week at a lesson
Keep in mind that many of them would love to practice every day at no cost, like you and me, but are prevented from it by the lack of prospective partners. There simply is an imbalance between men and women among amateurs. At any given moment I know of at least five different amateur girls looking for a partner.
quote:what makes you think that they wil 'have the time' to participate in discussions here, much less have an interest in it?
What makes me think that? How about the fact that they already did? If you look over the past messages on these boards, you'll find plenty of posts by pro-am ladies. They not only find the time and interest to participate, they also have something worthwhile to say.
quote:In the pro-am world they are insulated from conflict as WELL as difficulty
Conflicts are frequent and bitter in the pro-am world around here in Boston. They seem to happen mainly over loyalties -- things like students switching teachers and teachers giving preference to one student over another. As for difficulty, try dancing pro-am on an equivalent of a schoolteacher's salary, like the great majority of them do. I certainly don't think that's easy; I myself couldn't manage it. Yet they somehow find a way.
Just because pro-am is not for you and me, it doesn't give us the right to dis it.
Well, what other dance styles routinely attract hundreds of participants in competition? I assumed it was the 'swing/social' crowd (west coast, hustle. salsa, etc) crowd you were talking about.
The POINT is that simply because a lot of people do it, or a lot of people want to do it, does not make it a 'goal' or show the need to change Dancesport. After all, if we always went to the lowest level of performance or ability as a beanchmark for judging 'interest', then you would always see folks doing something that was easier than harder... and to me, all that shows is that it is more accesible or approachable. NOT more right or more 'the way things should go'.
We have Pro Am for that ...
KIDDING!! don't shoot me!!!
Seriously, ease of performance or access is NEVER a good primary goal in a sport. Usually, that makes a sport UNpopular - people want to partcipate in a recreation that provides challenge... witness the steady advancement of extreme sports over the decline of corporate, organized sports - this tells me that folks want challenge and a HIGHER level of risk and skill.
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quote:Originally posted by DanceAm: Victor who? Fung? He is a pro now, either you are referring to another Victor or you are still living in the past.
O Geez...just replace his name is with Max or Val or any other am dancer who is teaching and making good money off it. Who cares, the point was it is still pro-am.
quote:Originally posted by anon: Seriously, ease of performance or access is NEVER a good primary goal in a sport. Usually, that makes a sport UNpopular - people want to partcipate in a recreation that provides challenge... witness the steady advancement of extreme sports over the decline of corporate, organized sports - this tells me that folks want challenge and a HIGHER level of risk and skill.
I don't agree, but I get what you're about here. It feeds back into the suggestion I made a couple of posts ago that perhaps dancesport in the US needs to get turned over to a more youth-focussed elite-track organization. Right now USABDA is trying to be everything to everyone. Ditto for the NDCA, perhaps even more so because they've been in the business of Pro/Am for so long. One way to move forward is for an organization to "cut to the chase" as it were and focus on finding and developing the young cream that basically IS dancesport. Because truth be told, from that persective, if you're over 25 it's too late for you. Heck, if you're over 16 it might be too late for you. Why waste time, money, and effort on adult dancers when most of them are hobbyists who might to go an open overseas competition for fun maybe once in their lives? And this isn't just about Pro/Am, this is about every single adult amateur couple who came in to dancesport later in their lives, often through social dancing. This is every single dancer who wasn't driven and talented enough to make the jump from beginner to "not looking stupid in Championship" in under two years. This is the "make dancesport a REAL SPORT argument." Let's shake off the shackles of our inclusive social dance past and go for it, as it were.
Imagine Nationals as holding only Championship-level events in each age group...and furthermore getting rid of American style since it's not competed internationally anyway. That would cut the cost of holding Nationals down to practically nothing. No one would have to sit through boring syllabus events. The time and cost savings are enormous.
I don't agree with this alternative, but it does make some sense and the nice thing is that if things did go this way, those of us who don't fit that target demographic could still band together and do what we enjoy without taking anything away from the "true dancesport athletes." After all, even in this day and age you don't have to be Venus or Serena Williams to enjoy some competitive tennis, and you don't have to be Annika Sorenson or Tiger Woods to challenge yourself in a golf tournament. Do you know that old people (meaning anyone over 25) have organizations centered around such diverse sports as competitive swimming and figure skating? They have coaches, lessons, practices, competitions, and even National championships. Some people don't have to be on an Olympic or World Championship track to have a good time. There are adult soccer, basketball, and softball leagues. No one is ever going to be on TV, and no one even thinks for a moment that they'll play in the World Cup, but they do it anyway because they enjoy friendly competition and teamwork. Some people think that having a good time and doing something because it brings them enjoyment, pleasure, and self-satisfaction is enough of a reason to do it. Who'd have thought....
The NDCA and USABDA are obviously filling the needs of these people who dance for personal fulfillment and enjoyment. Is the real issue not so much that you hate Pro/Am, but that that these organizations aren't doing enough for the elite-track atheletes because of the split focus on social dancers, hobbyists, etc.?
quote:Originally posted by DanceAm: Victor who? Fung? He is a pro now, either you are referring to another Victor or you are still living in the past.
O Geez...just replace his name is with Max or Val or any other am dancer who is teaching and making good money off it. Who cares, the point was it is still pro-am.
You are starting to sound like DancingKid
You sound like a desperate dance professional who sees his world collapsing. You are just going to have to overcome this, but if you really see USABDA as a threat, you are S-O-L. Maybe weak individuals like yourself should claim a disablity for not being able to deal with life, get a government check and stay home. At the last report I looked at, USABDA competitors that taught all combined only brought in about 80,000 a year. That is at most 4 average dance teacher's salaries. But if the NDCA thought of this as a threat, then surely 20 or so USABDA mixed proficiency events must threaten at most 3 or 4 comps.
I have spoken to many professionals and they think there are too many NDCA comps already. Heritage and the Vegas Showdown were on the same weekend, so many top professionals that normally compete at Heritage went to Vegas, but guess what, the world didn't end, both comps were still as good as ever.
You are worrying about nothing. If you look at the participants of USABDA comps, you will see that there are couples that participate with an amateur partner who are also very active in Pro/Am. Somehow these individuals still manage to keep their teachers and support USABDA. But many I have talked to are told by their teachers that the student should not support USABDA, or dance with another Amateur. What is the reason for that?
If the best these Dance Professionals can do is start editorials claiming Dance Armegeddon because some USABDA comps might try Mixed proficiency, they they are a bunch of Pu$$EEs. WAHHH.
