Quote: If you put the same amount of effort into giving an unsubtle lead to an experienced follower that you put into leading an inexperienced one, I think you'd get a better result.
I'd strongly disagree. The "oh I know how to do this" trap is quite real and there's not much of anything the leader can do when a follower decides to assume rather than to listen.
Let's say if the lead isn't clear, in your opinion, should the follower make assumptions or stop dancing and wait for the clear one, or some other alternative?
In some people's minds, Pro/Am is a taint that can never be escaped. I think basically the animosity between amateurs and Pro/Ams stems from the negative feedback loop where some amateur men don't like Pro/Am women because of the attitudes depicted in 90% Attitude's post and the preceived "rich old lady" syndrome, and some Pro/Am women are turned off by the men who don't like them and get tired of beating their head against the wall trying to do the best they can and still being belittled for it. The funny thing is that not all Pro/Am women think that way, and not all amateur men think that way, but enough of each seem to so that it continues. It seems intractible, which is why I think the initial response to this thread was to brush it off and bury it.
Let's say if the lead isn't clear, in your opinion, should the follower make assumptions or stop dancing and wait for the clear one, or some other alternative?
This is the 'trap' - the follower's assumptions wil lbe based upon their experience and that indefinable awareness of kinesthetics.
Proammers may have had good leads in the past, but the fact that they do very little practice (going to a social is NOT proactice LOL) mean they have very little experience. This is TRAINING, not just lessons and it takes many hours to TRAIN your body to do and understand. Proammers mostly are part of the 1 hour-a-week crowd, and they do not normally understand that their instructor works with them at their level... imagined or real, it is what the student can do, not the pro. This means that the student gets feelings that are, say, bronze level, and when they have to dance up to another level, or even dance with another person at their level, they do not always get all the 'intelligence' that a pro puts into the 'dance' movement. In other words, to dance great bronze, you really need to know higher levels - then your bronze movement is a complete and full movement. A pro brings all his many years of knowledge to the movement - an am may only have a year or so of that movement. To wit: foxtrot, instead of being a MUTUAL movement, becomes a lead-and-follow movement.
The Proam student, saying things like 'I don't have time to put in more than x hour a week' or 'I don't want to have to 'wait' for a partner' tells the pro that the student would rather have the 'experience' of dance rather than learn the mechanics. If the pro told the student the real truth - that it takes YEARS of constant work to attain quality, at ANY level, they'd lose the student at once - to a teacher that gives what the student wants to hear - that competive level is attainable in 1 or 2 hours a week for 6 to 8 weeks.
I'd strongly disagree. The "oh I know how to do this" trap is quite real and there's not much of anything the leader can do when a follower decides to assume rather than to listen.
Let's say if the lead isn't clear, in your opinion, should the follower make assumptions or stop dancing and wait for the clear one, or some other alternative?
I think the only realistic answer is that it depends on the context and what your goals are. At levels where people assume you move all the time, guessing is common and perhaps appropriate unless it's a work session, in which case asking for something clearer might help. My teacher will stop me and make me actually lead it - no more drifting through things at this point. There's also some difference in the communication protocol between dance styles - if I fail to lead an open hip twist, I'm likely to get an open basic, wheras is I fail to lead a standard figure, I may well get nothing.
If both people are at a level where choosing not to step at every opportunity is a possibility, I'd expect someone to wait for some indication. And I do realize that sometimes if that indication is too little or too late, the lady will have to do some awkward catchup. But having the opportunity to actually lead is the only way a guy is ever going to learn how (and the only way the couple will ever earn the resulting versatility) - second guessing is a temporary fix that ultimately perpetuates the problem.
Sometimes I've been lucky enough to dance with ladies who manage to not only wait for me to lead the things I'm going to, but somehow also fill in the details I'm not aware are missing. I still haven't figured out how they do that, but it's really cool.
I'd like to follow on from what DanceAm just posted. Something to think about is that competitive dancers are in a HUGE minority compared to social dancers. After all, USABDA membership is about 24,000 social dancers and 6,000 amateur competitors, of which about half are Youth/Junior/Pre-Teen. There are a good number of women who aren't in USABDA who are doing Pro/Am, but after spending a couple of years travelling the Pro/Am circuit and seeing the same names and faces over and over, I don't really think it's all that many people either. A tiny number of competitive dancers of all stripes nationwide is keeping the whole competitive dancing business alive.
I'm optimistic and idealistic, so I would really like to see the infighting stop and everyone band together to grow the sport. Even if there are 10,000 competitive Pro/Am students out there, that's still NOTHING when added to the 6,000 amateur competitors. Even if there are 10,000 college competitors out there to add in, the total is still NOTHING in a country of 280 million people. We've laughed at competitive cheerleading here, but the numbers of people involved completely dwarfs the number of dancesport competitiors in the USA. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a bit of mutual understanding and a live and let live attitude is needed so everyone can pull together if dancesport is ever going to get anywhere.
Obviously partner dancing is not completely unpopular in the USA -- witness the Lindy revival craze that was in part triggered by something as simple as a Gap commerical. But what has dancesport done in the US to capitalize on anything? We've suffered from years of personal and organizational infighting. It's all such a shame and such a waste.
The Proam student, saying things like 'I don't have time to put in more than x hour a week' or 'I don't want to have to 'wait' for a partner' tells the pro that the student would rather have the 'experience' of dance rather than learn the mechanics. If the pro told the student the real truth - that it takes YEARS of constant work to attain quality, at ANY level, they'd lose the student at once - to a teacher that gives what the student wants to hear - that competive level is attainable in 1 or 2 hours a week for 6 to 8 weeks.
Not all Pro/Am teachers and Pro/Am students are like that. Not all amateur couples have tons of time to spend on their dancing, either. But trying to explain that with real-life examples is fruitless. Although I will say this: on my first lesson my teacher told me it would take about 5 years before I could call myself a dancer. Didn't scare me one bit.
I am curious as to exactly how many hours a college newbie who has never danced before manages to put in before their first beginner comp later in the semester.
Proammers may have had good leads in the past, but the fact that they do very little practice (going to a social is NOT proactice LOL) mean they have very little experience.
Actually it depends on who you dance with - socials can be some of the best practice of all, particularly of the skills that aren't sufficiently developed in routine-format training such as most pro-am and group class work. My real test of how well I know material is if I can lead it to a skilled partner on an upredictable social floor.
And to answer Laura's fear, some of my favorite social partners actually have substantial pro-am experience and have I think benefitted from that opportunity to learn in a setting beyond the limitations of available partners. But they also have substantial experience competing at high levels in amateur partnerships, and social dancing with other competitors.
I am curious as to exactly how many hours a college newbie who has never danced before manages to put in before their first beginner comp later in the semester.
Well we have 6 hours a week of instruction open to the newcomers; most take about 4 hours of it. Plus have another 3-6 hours a week of supervised practice time. Many will start adding anothrt 2-6 hours of solo couple practice time as well.
So let's say that's 10 hours a week, which is generous because for the first few weeks people aren't actually doing that much. How many weeks are there from the first newbie lesson to the first beginner competition later in the semester?
Quote: I am curious as to exactly how many hours a college newbie who has never danced before manages to put in before their first beginner comp later in the semester.
MIT's rookies have been offered 6 hours a week of classes, with at least 4 additional hours of assistance-available practice time per week since early September. Most are attending at least 4 hours hours of that, if not more. Some are also taking classes with the social club in search of even more experience.
When they hit the floor at Harvard next weekend, they need to be able to apply just three bronze foxtrot steps, and perhaps half a dozen in swing. If they can do those well, they'll win over people attempting more ambitious material than their present technical level can support.
But what's really important at this level is that they be able to dance simple material with comfort, confidence, good judgement, and mutual enjoyment - details come later once they have this foundation to build upon. The point here is not technical perfection, it's to solidify the idea that competition is 'something I can do' in order to create the opportunity for more detailed work.
