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Silver
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Registered:: 11-22-2000
Posts: 318
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In another topic I saw the following...

quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
The fact is that pro-am entry fees are the engine that drive DanceSport competitions. To the competition organizers, the pros are the fluff and not the bread and butter.

which had me revisiting a topic in my mind that continually puzzles me. Just who are the bread and butter of dance competitions?

Clearly, Pro/Am is what makes organisers the most money. But then why do organisers typically put the Pro/Am events during the day and make the 'premium' sessions the Pro events?

Certainly the audience seems more drawn to the Pro than the Pro/Am, so why are the Pro's 'fluff' - if indeed they are?

And what about the Amateurs, they seem to be somewhere in the middle. There aren't always very many of them and they don't pay very much (in comparison) so I can see that they aren't often a money-maker.

I read all over that Pro/Am is the core business in the US so why isn't it made more of at the competitions? All the different groups seem to complain that they are not treated proplerly, so who do people think should be the 'main event'?

I don't mean to spark a 'pro/am vs pro vs am/am' argument, just still trying to understand the US model of dancesport....

Paul

PreBronze
Registered:: 08-12-2001
Posts: 13
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Pros dance at night and the amateurs pay an additional fee to watch them. Organizers make virtually no effort to recruit an audience outside of the actual competitors and local dance studios.



Gold
Location: Tennessee USA
Registered:: 12-30-2000
Posts: 561
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I don't think I'm wrong in suggesting that no-one would really pay money to watch the amateurs or low level pro/ams anyway.

And the dance fees of what $35 for maybe 2 minutes paid by multiple competitors? I'm sure the money doesn't all go towards those handsome plastic buttons - that you win if you?re lucky!!

A cynic (who me?) might suggest that the last thing you would want to do for that part of the population who financially support the event to be acutely aware of this. They might start wanting value for money?


Yup - It's MONDAY for sure...

quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
Pros dance at night and the amateurs pay an additional fee to watch them. Organizers make virtually no effort to recruit an audience outside of the actual competitors and local dance studios.

[This message has been edited by Rob in TN (edited 04-02-2001).]

<participant>
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I don't think it's that promoters are avoiding building an audience. Fact remains that if you're into ballroom dancing, you'll attend an event. Joe off the street is not likely to come to a competition, unless his girlfriend or he participates in taking dance lessons. I think if you ask any promoter, if they have an opportunity to get a bigger audience beyond Pro/Ams, they would jump at that. It doesn't make sense to me if their interests are all business, that they purposely avoid getting more people to come to their event.



PreBronze
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Registered:: 01-12-2001
Posts: 112
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob in TN:
I don't think I'm wrong in suggesting that no-one would really pay money to watch the amateurs or low level pro/ams anyway.

Which amateurs? Sometimes the Open Amateur divisions are just as or more exciting than the Pro events. And promotors do run the Championship and Scholarship Pro-Ams in the evening session...

Natalie

Gold
Location: Tennessee USA
Registered:: 12-30-2000
Posts: 561
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This si why I stressed low level pro-am aspect.

Basically friends and family in the audience.


R


quote:
Originally posted by Natalie:
Which amateurs? Sometimes the Open Amateur divisions are just as or more exciting than the Pro events. And promotors do run the Championship and Scholarship Pro-Ams in the evening session...

Natalie





Championship
Registered:: 12-19-2000
Posts: 1328
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There's more to the competitive dancing in North America than NDCA hotel-based competitions.

But let me address them first.

Yes, I would agree that Pro/Am entry fees are the bread and butter of these competitions. I also think there's a delicate line to walk between milking the cash cow and killing the goose that lays the golden egg. Oh god I'm full of cliches today. Anyway, even though Pro/Ams bring the most money in, the low-level events (below Gold) also take a LOT OF TIME and are quite boring. And I'm saying this as someone who has been doing Pro/Am (Bronze then Silver) for the past three and a half years!

My point is that these events are run during the day and are for the competitors, and you should probably never expect there to be much of an audience at all for them. Just like you don't see Pee Wee Baseball games sold out and full of the general public -- it's parents and friends -- people want to see the Major League games.

As a Pro/Am dancer I don't actually mind being in the minor league. And getting to dance later in the day is a great big incentive for working my way up in the syllabus levels!

I think some competitions are better than others for "making much of" the Pro/Am competitors. I was just in the City Lights ball, which had reasonable entry fees (slightly less than the other local Pro/Am comps). As a very nice touch every competitor was given a "City Lights" sports bottle, a picture frame, and a coupon for a free dance picture taken of them during the event. The organizers managed to do this and still keep the entry fees right in line with the local market.

I'm going to dance Pro/Am in the upcoming San Francisco Open. This competition, like some others, has ways of giving breaks to Pro/Am competitors. Aside from the regular hotel/food packages for travelling competitors, they have a special non-hotel package that includes an entry ticket and a $10 discount off of each of your Pro/Am entries. I think I remember figuring out that if you do 6 or more Pro/Am entries anyway, you'll come out ahead by being on the package.

Most NDCA competitions now have web sites where you can get information about this stuff, so students don't have to go into competitions blindly.

About the Amateurs being in the middle...yes they are and they're lucky. At most NDCA competitions they get to dance at night, yet they have nominal (or sometimes no) entry fees. Getting an amateur partner is the number one best way to save money over Pro/Am, that's for sure!

When I pay $25-$45 for a nighttime ticket to a competition, I expect to see Pros and at least Pre-Champ and Championship level amateurs. Some competitions shunt the Rising Star Pros off to afternoon sessions, and some put everyone below Championship level Amateur in the afternoon, so depending on what competition you go to and who you are, everyone gets shifted from the 'main event' at one time or another. If you really hate dancing in the afternoon, just don't enter competitions that have you dance then. Again, most NDCA competitions have this kind of info on web sites so you can check in advance.

If you are lucky enough to find an amateur partner, there's more to competing than just the NCDA competitions. Local USABDA chapters put on competitions throughout the year. The entry fees for these are generally about $15-$20, which gives you general admission plus you can enter as many dance events are you are eligible for. Colleges and Universities also put on dance competitions, sometimes even for lower prices. The local universities in my area allow any amateurs to enter, you don't have to be a student or a member of a University dance club or team.

What I'm saying is that there's something for everyone if they look around for it. Yes Pro/Am is expensive but I don't expect it to ever get any cheaper. Although I do wonder if more people would do more Pro/Am entries if the costs were low enough? But I don't have the data to do that kind of cost/benefit analysis, so I don't know.

Laura

Championship
Location: Boston area
Registered:: 03-10-2001
Posts: 1533
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I think Laura pretty much said it all, but I wanted to back her up on the daytime stuff being just for friends, competitors, and family, but the evening being more of an audience event. I've been to comps in the New York City area that brought out the matrons in furs and sequins for the evening event, which included the open amateur heats and a professional show. Unfortunatly, I hadn't expected such a turn out and felt decidedly underdressed since I was wearing neither sequins or a ballgown!

How do the comps in other countries work fees and supporting themselves?




Silver
Picture of Peanut
Location: England
Registered:: 08-24-2000
Posts: 312
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Here in the UK, we don't have Pro/Am events, so,watching this board has helped me pick up on the concept, but it seems huge in comparison to Am/Am events - is this correct?.

Anyhow over here most competitions on the circuit are all Am/Am at every level from beginners to championship level. There are some events that also run a Pro/Pro championship on the same day, but from what i can see this is getting more & more rare.
Basically there are 2 types of funding for the organisers:
a) Entry fees to the hall, which are higher for competitors than spectators.
b) Entry fees into the competition - this is rare, but most major events & Some English Chart Rated events charge a fee.

Then they also have sponsorship etc.

This is just the opinion of a competitor and not an organiser, so it's what i see 'infront of house'. I am sure there is far more behind the scenes that i do not know about. But i hope that gives you an insight into the UK dance scene.

Vic

Championship
Location: Boston area
Registered:: 03-10-2001
Posts: 1533
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Its my understanding that in Europe ballroom dancing is much more established and respected than in these here rough, tough, old United States some of us live in. Therefore, the English teachers and comps can get enough students and spectators to support them without resorting to milking the pro/am cash cow.

I gather from Vic's post that paying spectators "off the street" are the rule, not the exception in England. Right?




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